Solo drivers should not be scored in team events.

S

StunT-Dom

New member
Dear LMU Team,

our Racing-Team has noticed an increasing number of solo drivers participating in team events.
Typically, two drivers are registered, but the race is ultimately driven by just one person.

Currently, LMU penalizes this by not awarding DR or SR points to solo drivers.
In our opinion, this is insufficient. Solo drivers should not be classified at all, as this creates an unfair advantage.

We have illustrated this with an example in a PDF, which shows that the top four finishers were all solo Drivers.
The driver in fifth place was the first "true" finisher.
The advantages enjoyed by a solo driver are significant, making the results invalid for ranking purposes.

Please LMU, you really need to address this to restore fairness for all team drivers.

Best regards...
 

Attachments

  • LMU Team Event 2.4h LeMans.pdf
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AlanR_77 said:
What specifically would you consider a significant advantage?
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Every driver reacts slightly differently, and that has consequences.

When a second driver steps in, they first have to get their bearings within the field and perhaps adjust to conditions like temperature, cold tires, and so on—all of which naturally affect lap times.
It is simply a different experience compared to driving the whole stint solo from start to finish.
Even if someone fails to see the advantages of having a single driver -> It is a team event, and that really says it all.

After all, you can't perform a couples' dance on your own.

The week before, the 2.4h race was for solo Driver, this week it’s for teams.
I’m not saying they shouldn’t be allowed to drive in this Events — they just shouldn’t be ranked.
That means they don’t get a final placing, and that’s that.

Edit:
If you look at the PDF, you'll see that there is apparently an advantage.
 
A 'TEAM' event should require multiple drivers. Further there should be a minimum and maximum time or lap count for all drivers. With the max time limit preventing any single driver from being able to finish the race.
 
davehenrie said:
A 'TEAM' event should require multiple drivers. Further there should be a minimum and maximum time or lap count for all drivers. With the max time limit preventing any single driver from being able to finish the race.
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Should it based off driver rating and how long the event is
 
davehenrie said:
A 'TEAM' event should require multiple drivers.
Click to expand...
For clarity, I don't disagree with this sentiment.

But claiming a competitive advantage is a bit false. Sure, the top 4 in the example above all had a single driver.
All of the top 4 had a driver with the letter "o", and the 5th place didn't. That doesn't make it an advantage to have the letter "o" in your name.
And look at the lap times of the second driver of the 5th placed car - they are 3 seconds off the pace. That's 45 seconds over the 15 laps that driver completed, right on the tail of the leader. If that car's second driver was capable of 3:57 laps they would have won.
It's easy to draw conclusions; it's even easier to draw incorrect or misleading conclusions.
 
My opinion is that any race under 6 hours shouldn't necessarily be a team event. For the rest, unless the number of participants with teams fills the starting grid, individual participation should be allowed; whether or not they score points is irrelevant to me. Best regards.
 
AlanR_77 said:
For clarity, I don't disagree with this sentiment.

But claiming a competitive advantage is a bit false. Sure, the top 4 in the example above all had a single driver.
All of the top 4 had a driver with the letter "o", and the 5th place didn't. That doesn't make it an advantage to have the letter "o" in your name.
And look at the lap times of the second driver of the 5th placed car - they are 3 seconds off the pace. That's 45 seconds over the 15 laps that driver completed, right on the tail of the leader. If that car's second driver was capable of 3:57 laps they would have won.
It's easy to draw conclusions; it's even easier to draw incorrect or misleading conclusions.
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Your statement actually confirms my theory…

P6 driver M. Rees is posting times (3:58.733) comparable to the top Drivers.
Had he been driving alone, he could have finished in P2.
That is exactly my Point. The second driver, C. Fletcher, is about 3 seconds slower (4:01.608).

So, what exactly is supposed to be misleading here?
My arguments are backed up in the PDF and remain 100% valid, even in light of what you said.
That is precisely the point. A team event involves at least two drivers.
 
Chug JGR said:
My opinion is that any race under 6 hours shouldn't necessarily be a team event. For the rest, unless the number of participants with teams fills the starting grid, individual participation should be allowed; whether or not they score points is irrelevant to me. Best regards.
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Yeah, that’s one way to look at it.

I really like these short, 2.4-hour team events, since I don’t always have the time to sit in front of the PC for hours.
It’s fun to quickly run a double stint with a friend.

But the rules regarding conditions for a team event really ought to be clearly defined.
When you race solo, you don’t get any DR or SR, so LMU doesn’t actually want you racing solo anyway.
 
AlanR_77 said:
For clarity, I don't disagree with this sentiment.

But claiming a competitive advantage is a bit false. Sure, the top 4 in the example above all had a single driver.
All of the top 4 had a driver with the letter "o", and the 5th place didn't. That doesn't make it an advantage to have the letter "o" in your name.
And look at the lap times of the second driver of the 5th placed car - they are 3 seconds off the pace. That's 45 seconds over the 15 laps that driver completed, right on the tail of the leader. If that car's second driver was capable of 3:57 laps they would have won.
It's easy to draw conclusions; it's even easier to draw incorrect or misleading conclusions.
Click to expand...
My solution contained nothing addressing any competitive advantage. I merely took the position that a TEAM event should have a TEAM. With the current wide open format, I could attach my sorry ass self to some online superstar, waddle around for 1 lap and then turn it over to the hotshoe.
There are plenty of individual events, so why diminish the TEAM aspect? Min % laps/time for each driver coupled with a Maximum allowable time per each driver as well. We only need to look to the WEC rules to determine just what those percentages should be.
 
StunT-Dom said:
Yeah, that’s one way to look at it.

I really like these short, 2.4-hour team events, since I don’t always have the time to sit in front of the PC for hours.
It’s fun to quickly run a double stint with a friend.

But the rules regarding conditions for a team event really ought to be clearly defined.
When you race solo, you don’t get any DR or SR, so LMU doesn’t actually want you racing solo anyway.
Click to expand...
Not having to worry about damaging your ratings smells like a recipe for disaster. We clearly know there are enough 'ner-do-wells' online that any event could be corrupted. Letting any single driver off Scott Free seems like a reward.
For example. Hotshoe #1 is very very good. But suffers disaster in Turn1. He returns to the pits for repairs and then has carte-blanche to retaliate against whomever did him dirty.
Teams matter.
 
davehenrie said:
My solution contained nothing addressing any competitive advantage
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Indeed it didn't. Sorry for the confusion, The initial paragraph in my reply was in response to the quote from you.

The remainder was more generally towards the original theme of the discussion as a whole. Which on reflection was completely pointless as StunT-Dom either doesn't understand or refuses to acknowledge the point I was making.
 
davehenrie said:
Not having to worry about damaging your ratings smells like a recipe for disaster. We clearly know there are enough 'ner-do-wells' online that any event could be corrupted. Letting any single driver off Scott Free seems like a reward.
For example. Hotshoe #1 is very very good. But suffers disaster in Turn1. He returns to the pits for repairs and then has carte-blanche to retaliate against whomever did him dirty.
Teams matter.
Click to expand...
That is exactly what I mean :)
 
Armando Ortenzi said:
So, I could participate alone in a team race, and push people left and right because my rating won't change?
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Theoretically, that would work.

Edit:
However, your badge can still get worse if you mess around and your team rating suffers (though I don't think most people care about that anyway).
 
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AlanR_77 said:
Indeed it didn't. Sorry for the confusion, The initial paragraph in my reply was in response to the quote from you.

The remainder was more generally towards the original theme of the discussion as a whole. Which on reflection was completely pointless as StunT-Dom either doesn't understand or refuses to acknowledge the point I was making.
Click to expand...
Please explain which point I’ve misunderstood or overlooked…

I’ve noted your opinion and accept it. I don’t want to force my view on you.
I just want you to understand the point of this post. I’m not trying to convince you that my opinion is the right one.
I’ve presented facts and compiled them into a PDF. As others here have mentioned, these are team events where people deliberately sign up in pairs but then drive solo.

In my view, this is an advantage—as you can see with P5—because the team consists of one fast driver and one slower driver.
I’m not here to convince specific individuals to change their minds, but rather to point out a flaw in the simulation to the LMU team and thereby improve the gaming experience for everyone.

After all, that’s what we all want, for it to be fun and as realistic as possible.
We’re doing sim racing here, not playing Forza, where everyone can do whatever they want.
In a simulation, there are rules to make the experience as realistic as possible.
The rulebook is modeled after the WEC, and that’s the standard we’re aiming for.

Please don't try to read anything into this that isn't being said.

Best regards...
 
If we want to be purists... go ahead, mandatory without exception, in team races, a minimum of two drivers. If this isn't the case in practice, the registered team should be penalized, regardless of the reason why one or more drivers couldn't compete and only one ended up doing so. The penalty must be severe to prevent recurrence. A simple and clear rule for everyone: if someone is later penalized, even with a credible and demonstrable excuse, they accept the rule before registering, therefore they have the obligation and the implications for everyone, or they can choose not to register.

My personal opinion is much more lenient. I think it's right to apply it in team championships. The rest should be for fun and learning to race in a multi-class format, and the best way to do that is in long races, since short races are just continuous qualifying laps, and that doesn't teach you anything about racing in different groups.

Having said that, and although it's not directly related to the topic, I don't want to miss the opportunity to express my frustration with all those arrogant "pros" with egos of supernatural proportions, who tend to frequent the early splits. As soon as a regular driver makes a piloting or judgment error, they go for the jugular, telling them with grandiose pronouncements to find another profession or even resorting to insults, without considering that the person—if there is a person behind those usernames, let's not forget—is already feeling distressed enough about their mistake and the damage they may have caused (I'm talking about normal people).

Even true professionals make mistakes, and they aren't vilified for it. This is A GAME, and everyone who buys it has the right to play. The rules are set by LMU, and if you don't like playing with lower-level players, you know what to do... create your own server or join the paid tournaments.

P.S.: I don't speak English fluently, which means that many of the absurdities and nonsense written in the chat during and after the race don't bother or upset me. That's why I express myself in my own language, or I don't usually reply, not out of disrespect to others. Races end with the checkered flag; holding grudges won't make you a better driver. Cheers.
 
Just last week there was a topic about a 2.4hr Le Mans race that was a solo event instead of a Team race. That is the point, there are PLENTY of solo driver experiences in LMU. Team events, I'll wager, do not compare with how many solo events are available. So that is why I'm such a turd about TEAM events. The folks who enjoy teammates should be celebrated, not have their efforts stolen from them.
Therefore, my stance is clear. Team events require TEAMMATE(S)! Solo events do not.
 
I don't see what the problem is. As long as we can run long races, both individually and in teams, that's fine by me. But... only long races for teams, no. This is just my personal opinion, not a requirement. Best regards.
 
Yes, endurance racing is what we all want.
There should be both team and solo events....I’m fully on board with that.
But if it’s a team event, then please actually participate as a team (minimum of two drivers).

I’ve been looking at the results for everyone who raced over the weekend, and in 95% of cases, solo-drivers in the team-event are the ones winning and taking the top 3 to 5 spots. I find that a shame, and it shouldn't be like that.
 
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