Ranking-System

If you drive well enough, it cuts both ways. I've had a decent run over the last couple of days. My last 5 race results DR-wise have been

+7.1%
+6.0%
+12.8%
+6.4%
+14.5%

I have been lucky in the sense that I was coming from a low point after nearly dropping to DRB2. I've also had decent races in high multiplier events, so small gains have been magnified.

Now I've said it - and now that my DRB3 is significantly improved again - the chances are that my results won't be quite as good as I'll be competing against higher ranked players.
 
Thanks Lazza.

You don’t get DR for good race results, you get it for beating people
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Hmm, well that’s the kicker I guess. I’d have hoped for something positive from finishing ahead of six hypercars and four gt3s.

Not to worry - I am gradually getting quicker and the discipline of racing against a bunch of drivers with such a narrow spread of lap times is refreshing compared to the indiscipline of my last few years in rf2.
 
Maybe a car or two with slightly better ranking than you got a great result in qualifying and took more points off everyone.
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Just re-read this….

I didn’t appreciate that drivers ranked above me - that stay above me in Q/Race - could affect my results. (ditto for those that are ranked below and stay below. I had understood from your explanation @Lazza way back whenever that it was more transactional - I.e. I would gain (unspecified value depending on delta in hidden ranking score) from those I overtook and lose (again unspecified…) from those that overtook me…

If it’s more the case that there is a fixed pot of points to be allocated then yes, I can see that possibly other drivers above me (which was basically all of them bar one) could’ve had a blinding race and overshadowed my meagre achievements. Somehow that doesn’t seem as equitable as the transactional model I alluded to that only really takes into account position changes relevant only to me.

If I start an expected P17 and make it up to P13, say - why should my score matter what happened to the top starting 10 assuming that none of them finished below me? What matters to me are the hidden scores of those that overtook me and those I overtook - the rest might as well have been in a different split.

It’s a bit like my hidden dr score being penalised in GT3 because the P10 hyper car managed to win his class…

Academic - and it is what it is.
 
Mr Fox said:
Just re-read this….

I didn’t appreciate that drivers ranked above me - that stay above me in Q/Race - could affect my results. (ditto for those that are ranked below and stay below. I had understood from your explanation @Lazza way back whenever that it was more transactional - I.e. I would gain (unspecified value depending on delta in hidden ranking score) from those I overtook and lose (again unspecified…) from those that overtook me…

If it’s more the case that there is a fixed pot of points to be allocated then yes, I can see that possibly other drivers above me (which was basically all of them bar one) could’ve had a blinding race and overshadowed my meagre achievements. Somehow that doesn’t seem as equitable as the transactional model I alluded to that only really takes into account position changes relevant only to me.

If I start an expected P17 and make it up to P13, say - why should my score matter what happened to the top starting 10 assuming that none of them finished below me? What matters to me are the hidden scores of those that overtook me and those I overtook - the rest might as well have been in a different split.

It’s a bit like my hidden dr score being penalised in GT3 because the P10 hyper car managed to win his class…

Academic - and it is what it is.
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With Elo systems you calculate each “result” as a win, loss, or draw. In a race you can only draw with yourself, so you’re beating or losing to everyone.

Each of those “results” is evaluated separately. In a chess sense (where Elo originated, I think) while you might effectively finish 6th out of 64 players, the rankings are calculated by looking at your (match) result against each opponent and their ranking compared to yours. Same thing here.

So someone finishing in 5th while you finish 13th, if their ranking is slightly better than yours they’ll take more points from you than if their rank is much better. (The more a result is to be expected, the fewer points change hands)

Who passes who actually doesn’t come into it at all.


And I think qual was discussed earlier in this thread, on further reflection I think a benefit of including qualifying is that it lets you reduce the points hit from an unlucky race.
 
This Elo system is like electric cars.
Who cares about the DR (as is now) of the opponents in any given race, I know I don't, give us old school point scoring system back, from 1st to the last and give points accordingly. Pure and simple.

You better focus on how to make SR more fair, because now it's a total mess, regarding how it punishes everyone, where there is clearly only one in fault, and so on and so on...
 
skywalker22 said:
This Elo system is like electric cars.
Who cares about the DR (as is now) of the opponents in any given race, I know I don't, give us old school point scoring system back, from 1st to the last and give points accordingly. Pure and simple.

You better focus on how to make SR more fair, because now it's a total mess, regarding how it punishes everyone, where there is clearly only one in fault, and so on and so on...
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DR is separate to championship points. There are even online championships already with their own points. Totally different concept and use.
 
give us old school point scoring system back, from 1st to the last and give points accordingly. Pure and simple.
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@skywalker22 That doesn’t work for DR due to the splits. Theoretically, just one extra high-DR driver registering for a multi-split event could push someone from being bottom of Split 3, say, to the top-dog in Split 4 - and all other things being equal, the driver now in Split 4 would expect to earn 1st place points compared to last-place if he hadn’t been shuffled out of Split 3. It would be a lottery based on who entered the event.

Who passes who actually doesn’t come into it at all.
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@Lazza - thanks for the continuing evolution of explanation. At the end of the day, the LMU system will probably always confound and confuse until at least the moment when the current bullet-point ‘explanations’ of your DR delta for each event are overhauled (especially the totally misleading ‘bad boy - you finished in the bottom half of the pack’ ones).

I don’t know or have any constructive suggestions as to how you get around the perceived unfairness of having a good race (in terms of improving positions) but being spanked with a negative DR score, unfortunately! Even the ‘expected position’ statements are unhelpful in this context.

‘Final’ (hah!) clarification - in multi-class events (such as WEC-Experience) - am i correct in thinking I’d read that the DR treats each class entirely separately (so you're only measured against other GT3s, say)?

Thanks.
 
Mr Fox said:
‘Final’ (hah!) clarification - in multi-class events (such as WEC-Experience) - am i correct in thinking I’d read that the DR treats each class entirely separately (so you're only measured against other GT3s, say)?

Thanks.
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Yes, it only looks at others in the same class. There was an issue in the championships with the scoring ignoring the classes, but now that's fixed too in the current season.
 

It took me 3.5 hours to earn what this player took away in 3 seconds. . . . Whose fault is that? Me, of course, and only me! It only takes 10 races, 10 races to earn silver! And it doesn't matter that it's already 140 races in 210 hours of play. . . .
 
What I suffer most is the fact that it is easy to get rammed from the back and loose a lot of point with no fault.
I'm slow and when some faster drivers do mistakes and I manage to overtake them, i often get rammed, or side contacts, so it took me a while to get silver in safety.
Of course sometime it is the driver in front at fault, so it is not possible to assign always the fault to the driver coming from back.
Just two ideas for a soution.
One is expensive: train a referee-AI to assign fault for collisions. (I'm pretty sure many experts here would volounteer to train the AI inspecting videos and assigning faults in reference cases).
Another could be to introduce a system were people can take blame: any time you review your video and admit it was totally your fault you get an increase on another ranking, call it "sportmanship ranking", and your oppoent gets a total discount of that collision for the safety.

About the DR instead I think an ELO sysetm should be only based on relative rankings, so it should not take into account absolute postion like top or bottom half: if I'm bronze DR and end up in a race where all the drivers are silver or above, I should not be blamed for ending in the bottom half.
 
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dwaltz said:
About the DR instead I think an ELO sysetm should be only based on relative rankings, so it should not take into account absolute postion like top or bottom half: if I'm bronze DR and end up in a race where all the drivers are silver or above, I should not be blamed for ending in the bottom half.
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It doesn't, that's just an explanation, as by being in the bottom half you're "losing" to more people than those that you're "winning" against, so chances are your score is negatively impacted by that.
 
Emilian Huminiuc said:
It doesn't, that's just an explanation, as by being in the bottom half you're "losing" to more people than those that you're "winning" against, so chances are your score is negatively impacted by that.
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well then it can be a misleading explanation: casue if I compete with a field of all stronger players and end one position below half, telling me that being in bottom half is a red is actually a wrong message.
 
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dwaltz said:
well then it can be a misleading explanation: casue if I compete with a field of all stronger players and end one position below half, telling me that being in bottom half is a red is actually a wrong message.
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I think it has been accepted that some of the DR post-race bullet points are irrelevant and misleading - the top/bottom half ones in particular.

What would be far more useful are explanations as to why your DR is negative in cases where you outperform the stated expectations - so something like: “although you qualified/finished better than expected, other drivers really outperformed their rank”. Still sounds fishy and unintuitive, but does at least explain some of the counter-intuitive DR deltas I’ve seen….
 
In fact, every result could have this at the bottom as a standard wording -

"Although you may have qualified or finished better than expected, other drivers may have outperformed their rank to a greater extent”.
 
“You suck”

😂

The whole mention of expectation ironically sets the expectation that matching it will lose you no points. Actually a match between two players will always reward the winner, or they have no reason to risk playing. And a race is just treated as a whole bunch of 1v1 matches.
 
Hello,
There’s still a lot of discussion about whether DR is "unfair" or not, even though it seems like the main issue is with the report lines rather than the actual system. But in terms of calculation, I think it works very well.
Personally, I find myself in splits with other players who have a very similar skill level to mine. From first to last in the split, when everything goes smoothly in the race, the gaps aren’t huge, it’s really well-balanced. To achieve this kind of result, the split formation must be based on a well-calculated DR, right?
I also understand that the further down you go in the splits, the bigger the gaps between players in a race tend to be, but that’s mainly because more small mistakes are made during the race.
Overall, I feel like we’re competing against players of the same level, and compared to my memories of online racing without a DR system, the difference is striking, it’s much more enjoyable this way! ;)
 
ztmlsilon said:

It took me 3.5 hours to earn what this player took away in 3 seconds. . . . Whose fault is that? Me, of course, and only me! It only takes 10 races, 10 races to earn silver! And it doesn't matter that it's already 140 races in 210 hours of play. . . .
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Wait you’re not even Silver after 140 races? Clearly you must be doing something wrong, either crashing too much, overdriving or invalidating laps. A fully clean race can give you +40% on your safety rating…

If I were you I’d qualify as best as you can (without crashing/invalidating laps), then start from the pits and finish clean

For reference I’ve had 44 races and I’m already upto SRG3, with the first 10 races yielding no improvement to my safety rating - only once I started driving cleanly & safely my safety rating has been going up pretty much every race
 
Hi Guys,

There is a different SR between multiplayer races and online championship ? Before my last race in championship I had SR G1(~5% progress). After this race the rank breakdown notice me SR3 with +71% :unsure:. My "main" SR is now G1 (~55% progress).

How does it really work ?
 
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