Lack of feeling grip

[PushkaGonka]

Your steering wheel is only connected directly to the front wheels. Though when the rear starts yawing out, the front wheels will naturally turn to match the direction of travel. So you can feel the rear end wag on the brakes, or snap on exit. But it's less direct feeling because you're only feeling through the wheel the effects loss of rear grip has on the rest of the car. Not that axle directly.

In iRL we feel the drifts of our But how to understand this in the simulator if the grip with the road is transmitted mainly from the front wheels? These are standard settings, and I took Toyota and practiced for only 15 minutes to get this time, all because the car does not break away on these settings, you can safely brake, accelerate. But for example, if your VE is fully charged, you will get a turn that is almost impossible to save, it happens like a lightning strike, but why is that? Why does FFB not inform you that there is a loss of grip and you decide to go straight to the fence in the last turn, even if you lose 5 seconds, but you will not get an unexpected turn with a subsequent serious accident. Or for example put the front ARB 2, and the rear 6 and when your tires wear out in about 20 minutes, you will not be able to react in time at some point the car will turn and again I would like to get this information BEFORE this happens, something like this, when your tires are cold, you understand that the FFB has become lighter and it is also worth cooling your ardor a little) In addition, one very important observation, in WEC cars go faster despite the fact that the pilots risk their health and a large sum of money in an accident. If you take the best lap of all time in CoTa in LMU it will be 1.51.2, in IRL this time is a second faster or the same Sebring The best time is 1.45.7 for the entire week and hundreds of races from all participants, but in just one WEC qualification 1.45.067 Ferrari team, and second place 45.2. Maybe there is not enough grip in the LMU, because we are not afraid to crash the car, we will have a thousand more opportunities.

 

[RhinomanWC]

Bahrain/ TOYOTA 1.45.8 HOTLAP

In iRL we feel the drifts of our But how to understand this in the simulator if the grip with the road is transmitted mainly from the front wheels? These are standard settings, and I took Toyota and practiced for only 15 minutes to get this time, all because the car does not break away on these settings, you can safely brake, accelerate. But for example, if your VE is fully charged, you will get a turn that is almost impossible to save, it happens like a lightning strike, but why is that? Why does FFB not inform you that there is a loss of grip and you decide to go straight to the fence in the last turn, even if you lose 5 seconds, but you will not get an unexpected turn with a subsequent serious accident. Or for example put the front ARB 2, and the rear 6 and when your tires wear out in about 20 minutes, you will not be able to react in time at some point the car will turn and again I would like to get this information BEFORE this happens, something like this, when your tires are cold, you understand that the FFB has become lighter and it is also worth cooling your ardor a little) In addition, one very important observation, in WEC cars go faster despite the fact that the pilots risk their health and a large sum of money in an accident. If you take the best lap of all time in CoTa in LMU it will be 1.51.2, in IRL this time is a second faster or the same Sebring The best time is 1.45.7 for the entire week and hundreds of races from all participants, but in just one WEC qualification 1.45.067 Ferrari team, and second place 45.2. Maybe there is not enough grip in the LMU, because we are not afraid to crash the car, we will have a thousand more opportunities.

I get exactly what you're saying about not getting enough of the right feedback. There's not enough info when you're about to lose control, only after it happens and by then it's too late.

 

[dom.au23]

Are you saying a sim driver should be able to make the same lap time in the sim as a real race driver with a lot more tactile feedback in a real car and many many hours of driving, possibly since childhood?

 

[dom.au23]

I have said it before, the are so many variables to what is "felt" through the steering wheel on your "rig", thats is almost impossible to decipher what exactly each person is feeling through words written on a forum. All we have is our own interpretation of what feedback we get via the developers interpretation of what a sim should feel like based on their research and their interpretation of a race car (assuming they are not also drivers themselves).

Even consultation with real drivers during dev is still the developers interpretation of "that drivers" feedback on their equipment and their settings.

There are many that are happy with how it feels and many that are not.

Do you see that continuous banging about how poor this is for you (or other fast drivers) is almost fruitless. I say almost. Provide feedback on your experiences. That will be combined with the hundreds (hopefully thousands) of other drivers to find the best medium for the game.

 

[Emilian Huminiuc]

Are you saying a sim driver should be able to make the same lap time in the sim as a real race driver with a lot more tactile feedback in a real car and many many hours of driving, possibly since childhood?

In general, the best sim drivers manage in sim laps that are (quite) a bit quicker than the best drivers manage IRL, and, conversely most real race drivers are a bit slower in sim than they are IRL, and they need a bit of coaching. There's plenty of stories out there about this. (Also it was mentioned quite a few times during Virtual Le Mans commentary)

 

[virtual_GaRy]

In general, the best sim drivers manage in sim laps that are (quite) a bit quicker than the best drivers manage IRL, and, conversely most real race drivers are a bit slower in sim than they are IRL, and they need a bit of coaching. There's plenty of stories out there about this. (Also it was mentioned quite a few times during Virtual Le Mans commentary)

Assuming that the driving physics, car performance etc is identical, which it never will be.

Anyway, I don't subscribe to the fact that you can feel that much more by the G forces than what we get in the wheel. If you cannot react to the wheel feeling in time, then neither will you to the feeling in your seat either haha.

 

[Emilian Huminiuc]

I'd say a good sim driver is very much like an instrument rated pilot, relies much more on visual input than on the seat/controls feedback.

 

[PushkaGonka]

A good simulator will be similar to the real experience. A couple of years ago when I was learning to fly FPV I trained a lot in several simulators, and my 6 year old son too. But at first we couldn't even take off, let alone do tricks. After 2 months when I got all the parts, my online experience was about 50 hours and after I made my first launch, I immediately discharged all my batteries without a single crush and moreover flew under benches, took off and landed from a table, and after my son was also able to fly without problems and look at the city from above. FPV is fully manual control has and without skills you simply can't even take off. LMU is a great simulator, but most fast players will be happy with everything that happens in the game. I share my impressions for the purpose of feedback from a person who does not pay too much attention to sim racing, I often come to races right at registration and drive on standard settings, my offline experience allows me to drive not badly and even fight for victory, but I have a lot of uncertainty in control, it is similar to if I went right now in iracing I think the race will end for me on the first lap. But this is not like the experience in rF2 where after more than half a year I feel very confident. because I know what gas and brake are) In addition, if the car starts to slide or lock the wheels it does not turn at the same second, you can regain control and this is how it works in real life, I drive a lot of fast cars, both in the city and on the track.

 

[dom.au23]

Assuming that the driving physics, car performance etc is identical, which it never will be.

Anyway, I don't subscribe to the fact that you can feel that much more by the G forces than what we get in the wheel. If you cannot react to the wheel feeling in time, then neither will you to the feeling in your seat either haha.

That’s a fair point. But in that comment there is an assumption that we CAN put the exact same feeling through the wheel that you get through seat of pants.

There are people that would both agree and disagree with that being possible and replicated accurately.

 

[dom.au23]

I'd say a good sim driver is very much like an instrument rated pilot, relies much more on visual input than on the seat/controls feedback.

I think you are closer to the reality of sim racing with this and I mentioned it in a separate post somewhere.

You need to feel the wheel, hear the tyres and see the track (and where the car is pointing and changing viewpoint).

These three things make up for the lack of seat of pants feel.

 

[Aysedasi]

All I can say is that if I could find half the pace between PuskaGonka’s fastest laps and mine I’d be a very happy old sim racer…..

 

[TonyM]

Off topic RL vs. Sim:

FWIW, I was quite a good IRL racer (in the late 90s) but in Sims I am just not very fast at all. Despite premium tactile setup, SFX motion setup and active dual seat belt tensioner. I definitely don't feel the car the same way than IRL.

But as long as it is somehow close in terms of EMOTIONS I am all good with that.
I have therefore much fun. And I am now able to race cars and tracks that I could not at that time.

 

[dom.au23]

I've just had a great double stint at Fiji in the 963. Granted its no where near the pace of PuskaGonka (5secs off the HYMO hotlap) but it was a pleasure to drive. I think the car had a small ARB tweak but it felt great. I could actually feel the lock up coming, both front or rear and quickly get off the brake pedal or adjust the steering. Like others have said, maybe its because my pace is slower but it felt fast for me and was thoroughly enjoyable.

As TonyM has said, it was fun, i couldve finished the race myself it was so much fun. I guess its all subjective right. Great for some, not so for others. Just thought i'd counter all the negative responses.

 

[PushkaGonka]

Yesterday I had 3 amazing races and I have something to show you) I came straight to qualifying in Monza/lmp2, in the race on the 3rd and 4th lap I set a fast lap time of 1.38.8 - 38.9 and suddenly I lose the car, out of nowhere, I didn't have time to understand anything, just a sharp turn, I could have driven straight into the gravel, but there were no signals of concern.

Right after the end of the race I see that in 1.5 minutes the WEC for 75 minutes starts, there was no time to prepare again, but surprisingly in 5 minutes of practice and 10 minutes of qualifying I drove steadily and set the best lap time.

I start my race, warm up the tires, and immediately decide that I will save a little fuel since the consumption is x2, the GTE is ahead, I release the gas, ride calmly for a while and do not brake much and suddenly lose control, I do not understand what it was, but thank you for being alive) Then after the first segment I go into the pits and without changing the tires, I go out, not having time to gain enough speed I try to turn safely and suddenly the car takes off into the sky, what the hell? 38 seconds of repairs. crooked steering wheel and a painful second segment . I decided to repair the car, but not change the tires for all 3 segments, in order to save 36 seconds, and now 3 laps before the end, thanks to saving fuel and not changing the tires, I manage to get ahead of the leader a second faster, I tried to drive very carefully, the LMP2 behaved predictably, when suddenly I overtake the GTE, brake with a straight steering wheel and again lose traction ...

Then I decided to drive the final race in Lemans, I arrive 4 minutes before the end of qualifying, take a Ferrari (last week I drove a BMW), I make it to the qualifying lap and start first, but already 2 minutes after the start in the third chicane I get blocked again ... I drove for 30 minutes, taking a lot of risks and now I'm breathing down the leader's neck. But I'm already smart, I thought and I start to brake a little earlier in the place where I lost the car and .... and again there I dance tango What a cancerous day for me ... But fortunately for me, the leader makes mistakes too and I'm already on his tail, on the last lap in the Dunlop chicane I start my braking a little earlier and not very effectively, when suddenly there is a lock again, but thank you that I realized this and drove into the gravel (finally this is exactly what I would like from a simulator and let me drive into the sand, the main thing is not to die on a level place))

In conclusion, I will say that I got great pleasure from the game, in some places my butt was burning But in Monza I finished 3rd, Sebring and Lemans despite a big loss of time I still managed to win. Of course tomorrow I will not make such mistakes, because I came everywhere without training and practice, but this only once again confirms my words that information is not always enough, and sharp breakdowns have nothing to do with irl, the car can slide a little, but the rubber bites into the asphalt, the wheels can even jump, the butt dance, but a sharp turn on braking is beyond my understanding. For those who read to the end -1 second in the race

 

[Owen]

I don't subscribe to the fact that you can feel that much more by the G forces than what we get in the wheel. If you cannot react to the wheel feeling in time, then neither will you to the feeling in your seat either haha.

I think the signal is just louder at your body than it is in your hands. Say the rear has stepped out like this on exit:



The backend (green) has actually come out a fair way, it's a pretty exaggerated example. The driver's seat (blue) has also moved a fair way, but not as much as the rear tyres. Then the steering axle (red) is basically the pivot point, or the caster distance away from it anyway.

Through your wheel there will a reaction to the rear coming out as the self-aligning torque will keep the front wheels facing in the direction of travel. But there would only be a relatively low amount of movement at the steering wheel compared to what you feel in the seat. Which means the rear needs to come out further before you notice anything untoward. If you were to sit in the back seat you'd likely get even more warning. Or I guess if you could sit chase cam you'd have great feel for rear grip

I think the same signals are there in the wheel, they're just less pronounced than they would be in your body. Like even on a bike I've had times when I've felt the rear smushing out on exit. But what feels like a heroic power drift to me is probably barely perceptible to someone watching.

 

[Owen]

But for example, if your VE is fully charged, you will get a turn that is almost impossible to save, it happens like a lightning strike, but why is that?

In an LMH when you have full battery it'll be as if you've suddenly shifted your brake bias very far backwards. It will be very unstable on the brakes. It is the opposite in an LMDh, where it'll just lock the fronts and miss the corner.

The hypercars in general I think when they go in a fast corner they're liable to let go quickly. I think this is something to do with aero. How when the car is off balance the aero platform is unsettled, which can affect the total amount of downforce as well as where the downforce is strongest. Removing grip from all 4 tyres or from mainly one end of the car.

The crashes in this video look crazy to me. They happen so quickly. I can see what you mean but don't know how you've done this. Like you spun leaving the pits, though you did somehow bounce over a bump. But it doesn't even look like you're going very fast when these spins happen.

 

[aaron0288]

It certainly depends on what car you drive too. Porsche curves is always a good place to test this out. The Alpine is so on the nose and responds so quickly to tiny steering inputs, it’s a nerve wracking experience going through there in that. Same can be said for the Ferrari for me.

At the other end, the 963 is a blast through there, as is the Peugeot. Still no walk in the park, but infinitely more controllable balancing the throttle and steering inputs. I’m going to try out all the Hypercar’s through there, but more often than not, the Porsche and Peugeot are the best feeling cars for me at most tracks. The Caddy is a close third but it’s just that bit looser. In a playful way though compared to the Alpine and Ferrari, nice and controllable, but not the quickest through or kindest on your tyres!

This is all with standard set ups btw, I’m sure I could help things with learning how to get a decent set up and tweak things to help a bit with those cars, but Le Mans can bite and sometimes it’s just best to go with what you’re comfortable with there.

 

[PushkaGonka]

The crashes in this video look crazy to me. They happen so quickly. I can see what you mean but don't know how you've done this. Like you spun leaving the pits, though you did somehow bounce over a bump. But it doesn't even look like you're going very fast when these spins happen.

I brake quite aggressive, but at high speed the wheels should not lock. In some incidents I still did not understand what happened, even watching the replay in slow motion.

Moreover, my lmp2 is set to 75% on braking, in the base the game suggests 67%, and my HY is 100%. I prefer to move the BB to the back to avoid locking the front wheels (51.9), but even if the wheels lock, the car has residual inertia and after a short lock and a small understeer, it should return to the line, as in the last example in the Dunlop chicane in Lemans/499.

And as you correctly noted, everything happens so fast that it defies the laws of physics, have you ever seen a WEC where the car would spin like that on braking?

 

[Aysedasi]

This is all with standard set ups btw, I’m sure I could help things with learning how to get a decent set up and tweak things to help a bit with those cars, but Le Mans can bite and sometimes it’s just best to go with what you’re comfortable with there.

This is very much where I'm at. I drive generally with the default settings, tweaking the brake bias and the TC settings and that's about it. I've tried the CDA setups in the open races but struggle to get on with them. Unfortunately setups are very much an alien art to me and, if I'm totally honest, I just don't have the discipline to learn the process.... I just want to drive.....

 

[aaron0288]

Yeah I don’t get on with the CDA set ups either. They seem to just make all cars more undriveable from the few times I’ve loaded them up so don’t touch them anymore. Do the same as you, just little tweaks with TC, BB etc.

Hopefully at some point there’ll be some nice free setups out there on YouTube for the more difficult cars to drive. I like to mix it up and use all the cars, so be good if I can tweak things to make them more suited to my liking. Not worried about being the fastest, as long as I can enjoy driving them.