Lack of feeling grip

[RhinomanWC]

It's important. There have been many times that I've been on the brink of reporting someone for bad driving in an online race but I've decided to watch the replay first - and have then concluded that I was probably as much to blame as he/she was.....

I've been there too, easy to blame other drivers but the replay shows a different story. A lot of times it's purely just racing incidents but I think it was malicious driving. I hardly ever report driver's though unless they're harassing me in chats or blatantly knock me off repeatedly

 

[Owen]

Thanks for your insights, I get what you're saying. My wheel has all of about 2nm, so there is definitely a very low dynamic range. I'm going to highlight this again - I'm not bashing LMU. I'm simply using Assetto Corsa Competizione as a reference because I get so much of feel in that game compared to LMU while using the same wheel. The software is called Wheelcheck, and LUT Generator for Assetto Corsa. Here's the link to Brian Koponen's website, he explains it best himself and gives details on what the software does (not a marketing link, the info and software are provided for free):

Best Assetto Corsa Competizione Settings for Logitech G29 / G920

How to calibrate your wheel to make Assetto Corsa Competizione feel much better for the Logitech G29 / G920 wheels.

www.briankoponen.com

Ah yeah I know it. Wheelcheck was made by David Tucker at iRacing. The guy behind their FFB and bass shaker outputs. I remember the LUT thing and trying it myself. I had 10 years on an old 2Nm belt wheel so I know what you mean. I also did everything I could to extract the most from it.

 

[aaron0288]

What I’ve noticed today while going from ACC to LMU, comparing GT3 to GTE respectively, ACC you can really chuck the cars in and lean on the grip available. They feel weighty, which a GT3 should.

The GTE’s in LMU, while I appreciate are slightly higher spec and weigh less than a GT3, feel much like the LMP2’s, only weightier. In other words, quite on edge and you have to be so careful with steering inputs.

I of course have no idea how realistic this is and am comparing two different cars in two different sims, but it does feel like what I’m feeling in ACC is what’s missing in LMU, more so with the GTE’s. The prototypes I can only imagine should feel as they do in LMU. Quite on edge and very light, LMP2’s especially. We know the Hypercar’s are quite heavy for prototypes and many real life drivers say they feel more like GT3’s on steroids. You can see irl and feel in LMU they move around more than the LMP2’s.

Be really interesting to do a direct comparison to ACC with the GT3’s once they arrive in LMU.

 

[dom.au23]

What I’ve noticed today while going from ACC to LMU, comparing GT3 to GTE respectively, ACC you can really chuck the cars in and lean on the grip available. They feel weighty, which a GT3 should.

The GTE’s in LMU, while I appreciate are slightly higher spec and weigh less than a GT3, feel much like the LMP2’s, only weightier. In other words, quite on edge and you have to be so careful with steering inputs.

I of course have no idea how realistic this is and am comparing two different cars in two different sims, but it does feel like what I’m feeling in ACC is what’s missing in LMU, more so with the GTE’s. The prototypes I can only imagine should feel as they do in LMU. Quite on edge and very light, LMP2’s especially. We know the Hypercar’s are quite heavy for prototypes and many real life drivers say they feel more like GT3’s on steroids. You can see irl and feel in LMU they move around more than the LMP2’s.

Be really interesting to do a direct comparison to ACC with the GT3’s once they arrive in LMU.

Good summary and I get what you are saying.

We shall see. I can’t wait for the gt3s, although I do like the lack of abs in the gte.

 

[TonyM]

It is indeed easier to drive a GT3 than a GTE because of the ABS.
IRL it is also MUCH cheaper (hence why it was created years ago).

Not to forget that many people have now either bass shakers on their brake pedals (Simagic HPR etc…) or even the Simucube AP and enjoy the ABS feeling/feedback on the pedal.

I personally love to drive the non ABS cars.


On the side note, I find very funny to see how many people complained about having only GT3 games (ACC, Rennsport etc…) and then now asking for the GT3 in LMU. I suppose because of the quite challenging driving skills needed for LMP2/ HY compared to GT3. And maybe also many players coming from ACC and not rF2.

 

[dom.au23]

It is indeed easier to drive a GT3 than a GTE because of the ABS.
IRL it is also MUCH cheaper (hence why it was created years ago).

Not to forget that many people have now either bass shakers on their brake pedals (Simagic HPR etc…) or even the Simucube AP and enjoy the ABS feeling/feedback on the pedal.

I personally love to drive the non ABS cars.


On the side note, I find very funny to see how many people complained about having only GT3 games (ACC, Rennsport etc…) and then now asking for the GT3 in LMU. I suppose because of the quite challenging driving skills needed for LMP2/ HY compared to GT3. And maybe also many players coming from ACC and not rF2.

For me it would be nice to have more and newer cars, that’s it. Something that looks like what I watch on too, like the hypers are.

 

[RhinomanWC]

What I’ve noticed today while going from ACC to LMU, comparing GT3 to GTE respectively, ACC you can really chuck the cars in and lean on the grip available. They feel weighty, which a GT3 should.

The GTE’s in LMU, while I appreciate are slightly higher spec and weigh less than a GT3, feel much like the LMP2’s, only weightier. In other words, quite on edge and you have to be so careful with steering inputs.

I of course have no idea how realistic this is and am comparing two different cars in two different sims, but it does feel like what I’m feeling in ACC is what’s missing in LMU, more so with the GTE’s. The prototypes I can only imagine should feel as they do in LMU. Quite on edge and very light, LMP2’s especially. We know the Hypercar’s are quite heavy for prototypes and many real life drivers say they feel more like GT3’s on steroids. You can see irl and feel in LMU they move around more than the LMP2’s.

Be really interesting to do a direct comparison to ACC with the GT3’s once they arrive in LMU.

Our experiences are quite similar. I can push a lot in ACC based on feel and my lap times have been getting lower and lower thanks to that. I have to say that with the most recent LMU patch LMP2's and Hypercars, and to a smaller extent GTE's, provide a bit more feedback and are more planted. This tiny difference is actually huge for me with the G27 I use. I find I don't spin so much and when I do there's a reason for it. I can now push more confidently instead of being conservative.

 

[RhinomanWC]

It is indeed easier to drive a GT3 than a GTE because of the ABS.
IRL it is also MUCH cheaper (hence why it was created years ago).

Not to forget that many people have now either bass shakers on their brake pedals (Simagic HPR etc…) or even the Simucube AP and enjoy the ABS feeling/feedback on the pedal.

I personally love to drive the non ABS cars.


On the side note, I find very funny to see how many people complained about having only GT3 games (ACC, Rennsport etc…) and then now asking for the GT3 in LMU. I suppose because of the quite challenging driving skills needed for LMP2/ HY compared to GT3. And maybe also many players coming from ACC and not rF2.

I actually found that once I moved to Hypercars and LMP2's that they were easier to drive that GTE's. They have more feel and more grip. LMU was the first racing sim I put significant time into so it was hard for me to have ABS on ACC. I can easily move from one game to the other though and adapt to the different driving experiences. It still takes skill to drive well with ABS, and it requires good trail braking to put in decent lap times.

 

[TonyM]

I actually found that once I moved to Hypercars and LMP2's that they were easier to drive that GTE's. They have more feel and more grip. LMU was the first racing sim I put significant time into so it was hard for me to have ABS on ACC. I can easily move from one game to the other though and adapt to the different driving experiences. It still takes skill to drive well with ABS, and it requires good trail braking to put in decent lap times.

yes I was more speaking about the average Joe.
As you have noted, not everyone has the same kind of driving skills. For some are better with a mid engine car, other with a front or rear engine car etc…same for ABS, TC,…
I wish LMU (or other sim) will be able to transfer the difference between different cars/ race cars even further but we have to be happy with we have currently. It is already so much better than PC gaming 20 years ago!

 

[aaron0288]

Agreed. LMP2’s in LMU are probably the most rewarding cars to drive in sim racing full stop for me. I’ve used ACC mainly since 2020 so it took a while to get used to no ABS, but boy is it rewarding and has actually improved my braking feel on ACC with my old Clubsport V3’s. The FFB and physics of the LMP2’s is just sublime.

Not to say that I dislike the Hypercars or GTE’s, far from it. The Hypercars are probably my most used class. But they just don’t have that crisp feel the LMP2’s have, and I dare say that’s because of what I mentioned earlier, where the LMP2’s are just that little bit stiffer and much lighter than a Hypercar, so you really feel what the car is doing right down to the finest detail.

It just doesn’t feel like you have much room to play around with the GTE’s. One little mistake and you lose a lot of time. This doesn’t make a huge amount of sense for a GT car that’s not particularly aero dependant. In ACC you really can play around with the car by making small adjustments/corrections with the steering and throttle throughout a corner and still get the lap time, if not improve it. Of course you can still do this in LMU, but it’s much more difficult for me to feel that limit and really lean on the tyres in the GTE. Could just be a skill issue on my part though!

 

[Owen]

It is indeed easier to drive a GT3 than a GTE because of the ABS.
IRL it is also MUCH cheaper (hence why it was created years ago).

Not to forget that many people have now either bass shakers on their brake pedals (Simagic HPR etc…) or even the Simucube AP and enjoy the ABS feeling/feedback on the pedal.

I personally love to drive the non ABS cars.


On the side note, I find very funny to see how many people complained about having only GT3 games (ACC, Rennsport etc…) and then now asking for the GT3 in LMU. I suppose because of the quite challenging driving skills needed for LMP2/ HY compared to GT3. And maybe also many players coming from ACC and not rF2.

On the subject of bass shakers, I'm curious how much tactile effect people are getting from their rig thanks to their FFB wheel.

I have a timber rig to which I've screwed on a diy timber seat. Made out of decking offcuts and chipboard and padded with some 10mm closed cell foam. I also run my wheel at 20 Nm and 75% in LMU.

I get loads of detail through the rig. I can feel road texture in my pedals. I can feel chatter and slip in my seat. Combined with my headphones I literally feel (or at least think I feel) kerbs on the side of the car that has run over them. I've had a bass shaker in the past and it was a bit coarse and canned, while vibrations from the FFB feel very natural.

When I have some money I'd like to get a proper seat and an aluminium rig. But if I do so, will I lose all this detail from my wheel? Does anyone else get this kind of vibration through their aluminium rig? I'd go off the idea of upgrading if I lose this.

 

[SquaredCircle]

On the subject of bass shakers, I'm curious how much tactile effect people are getting from their rig thanks to their FFB wheel.

I have a timber rig to which I've screwed on a diy timber seat. Made out of decking offcuts and chipboard and padded with some 10mm closed cell foam. I also run my wheel at 20 Nm and 75% in LMU.

I get loads of detail through the rig. I can feel road texture in my pedals. I can feel chatter and slip in my seat. Combined with my headphones I literally feel (or at least think I feel) kerbs on the side of the car that has run over them. I've had a bass shaker in the past and it was a bit coarse and canned, while vibrations from the FFB feel very natural.

When I have some money I'd like to get a proper seat and an aluminium rig. But if I do so, will I lose all this detail from my wheel? Does anyone else get this kind of vibration through their aluminium rig? I'd go off the idea of upgrading if I lose this.

I have a very sturdy alu rig, using a Simucube Sport and Heusinkveld Sprints. The rig does translate the FFB signal but to a MINIMAL extent.
I also use 4 bass shakers. I now have VERY limited time for racing so whenever I do I sometimes forget to turn on the bass-shaker-amp. And that's when I feel the difference. The bass shakers make the rig feel alive.
Or in short: In my opinion, the alu rig will not translate details of your wheel to any useful extent.
Please note that I'm very bad at constructing a rig so I over-engineered this - most of the rig is 80x40mm alu, seat base is made of 2 80x80 alu bars. So maybe using something a bit less sturdy could make FFB translate better through it.

Edit: When installing the bass shakers, I could not get any detail at first. If one rattles, it was not clear to my body which one it was. So I decoupled them using rubber parts. This of course is another reason why I can't feel any FFB (with shakers turned off) through the rig. But I can't remember feeling details like road texture without bass shakers on the non-decoupled first version of the rig.

 

[Aysedasi]

I actually found that once I moved to Hypercars and LMP2's that they were easier to drive that GTE's. They have more feel and more grip.

I'd agree with that with the LMP2s but not the hypers. I actually quite dislike them. Right from the first time I tried them I found them 'floaty' and understeery, like driving oversized speedboats..... I love to drive the P2s, they feel so much more precise to me and much easier to drive on the limit.

 

[RhinomanWC]

yes I was more speaking about the average Joe.
As you have noted, not everyone has the same kind of driving skills. For some are better with a mid engine car, other with a front or rear engine car etc…same for ABS, TC,…
I wish LMU (or other sim) will be able to transfer the difference between different cars/ race cars even further but we have to be happy with we have currently. It is already so much better than PC gaming 20 years ago!

I'd agree with that with the LMP2s but not the hypers. I actually quite dislike them. Right from the first time I tried them I found them 'floaty' and understeery, like driving oversized speedboats..... I love to drive the P2s, they feel so much more precise to me and much easier to drive on the limit.

The LMP2's are really excellent to drive. So good that some racers can drive them as fast as Hypercars in terms of laptimes. Really incredible cars.

 

[aaron0288]

It just shows that Studio 397 have nailed it though. Like I said before, you can see how much stiffer the LMP2’s are irl than the Hypercar’s and they’re clearly so much lighter too.

They’re the purest race car in LMU in terms of a prototype. I don’t share the same sentiments as @Aysedasi though, I still love driving the Hypercar’s, but can’t deny the LMP2’s are the best feeling to drive.

So the experiences you’re all having with the different classes of cars are very reflective of real life. Remember seeing Kubica say how pure a race car the LMP2 was compared to the 499P. Like you said @Aysedasi, the LMP2’s you have to be much more precise with your inputs, whereas the Hypercar’s do slide around a lot more, but you’ve got all that power at your disposal. I just find them hugely fun in a different way to the LMP2’s.

 

[PushkaGonka]

The last time I logged into LMU was last week on Sunday, I drove a few races in Lemans, successfully finished on the podium and won a couple of times with a lap time of 3.25.3 in qualifying and 3.26.1 in the race on a BMW. (I indicate the position and time for a general idea) On Monday I did not approach the computer, and on Tuesday with friends I decided to participate in ams2 at f1 1991 in Montreal. The track is new to me, and the car too, in 2 hours I got used to the physics of ams2 completely, successfully won 2 races and went to see what LMU gave us this week. I register in imola/499 literally 10 minutes to prepare and realize that I lock the wheels, oversteer the steering wheel, experience difficulties where everything was familiar to me. In general, I won the race with a time of 1.30.9, which according to the leaderboard was quite fast, but confidence never came. After that I decided to try Toyota, I won the same race, but with constant alarms and even slowed down a bit, so as not to kill myself somewhere in the chicane or in the last 2 turns) Yesterday my friends invited me to rF2 on imola/tatus, 15 minutes before the race I trained a little, finished second 1.39.7 and went to LMU on imola/499 again and here I am again locking the wheels, again worrying about not reaching the finish line, but again I win the race with a time of 1.30.9)) Say that it is a matter of skills, but I have DR G1, moving to other simulators I feel more confident, but returning to my home (lmu) where I am 95% of the time the jitters begin. To sum up, you need to live in lmu in order to remain fast and feel confident on a reflex level. P.s. I haven't logged into rf2 since February and 15 minutes was enough for me to have a great time in a new car for me, while showing a good lap time.

 

[RhinomanWC]

The last time I logged into LMU was last week on Sunday, I drove a few races in Lemans, successfully finished on the podium and won a couple of times with a lap time of 3.25.3 in qualifying and 3.26.1 in the race on a BMW. (I indicate the position and time for a general idea) On Monday I did not approach the computer, and on Tuesday with friends I decided to participate in ams2 at f1 1991 in Montreal. The track is new to me, and the car too, in 2 hours I got used to the physics of ams2 completely, successfully won 2 races and went to see what LMU gave us this week. I register in imola/499 literally 10 minutes to prepare and realize that I lock the wheels, oversteer the steering wheel, experience difficulties where everything was familiar to me. In general, I won the race with a time of 1.30.9, which according to the leaderboard was quite fast, but confidence never came. After that I decided to try Toyota, I won the same race, but with constant alarms and even slowed down a bit, so as not to kill myself somewhere in the chicane or in the last 2 turns) Yesterday my friends invited me to rF2 on imola/tatus, 15 minutes before the race I trained a little, finished second 1.39.7 and went to LMU on imola/499 again and here I am again locking the wheels, again worrying about not reaching the finish line, but again I win the race with a time of 1.30.9)) Say that it is a matter of skills, but I have DR G1, moving to other simulators I feel more confident, but returning to my home (lmu) where I am 95% of the time the jitters begin. To sum up, you need to live in lmu in order to remain fast and feel confident on a reflex level. P.s. I haven't logged into rf2 since February and 15 minutes was enough for me to have a great time in a new car for me, while showing a good lap time.

Those are super impressive lap times, especially at Le Mans! At best I'm about 9 seconds a lap slower than you. Even so I can relate to your feelings about the feel (or lack of it) in LMU. What wheel and pedals setup do you use? I'm on a G27 and with the recent update that gave more grip I have a little more confidence now.

 

[PushkaGonka]

Those are super impressive lap times, especially at Le Mans! At best I'm about 9 seconds a lap slower than you. Even so I can relate to your feelings about the feel (or lack of it) in LMU. What wheel and pedals setup do you use? I'm on a G27 and with the recent update that gave more grip I have a little more confidence now.

Simagic 15 nm/ p2000. It's not about DD. If you don't drive too fast, then everything is fine, but to show a fast lap time, you need to drive on the edge. Of course, this is observed in any business, not only in the game, in order to have an advantage you have to train a lot. For example, take Sebring, if in RF2 you drive along the joints in the slabs and feel how absolutely all the details are transmitted, then in LMU you feel only bumps, less details. When braking in RF2, your steering wheel is strongly filled with FFB force, and when the wheels slip, FFB becomes much easier, in LMU the moment of braking is less clear to me personally, I remember the force of pressing, and do not drive intuitively, if the car is already losing control and I understand that it's time to release the gas, but FFB does not change as if everything is fine, and I only understand with my eyes and by the sound of the tires that something is going wrong. All this is especially well felt after a short break or games in other simulators.

It seems that ffb is only on the front wheels and if the rear wheels start to slip but the front wheels have traction you won't get enough information about the loss of control.

 

[Aysedasi]

It seems that ffb is only on the front wheels and if the rear wheels start to slip but the front wheels have traction you won't get enough information about the loss of control.

Exactly this. I get this quite a lot at the moment.

 

[Owen]

Your steering wheel is only connected directly to the front wheels. Though when the rear starts yawing out, the front wheels will naturally turn to match the direction of travel. So you can feel the rear end wag on the brakes, or snap on exit. But it's less direct feeling because you're only feeling through the wheel the effects loss of rear grip has on the rest of the car. Not that axle directly.