This is... not okay...

Aysedasi said:
Agreed. But saying ‘It’s just DR’ doesn’t do that.

Anyway…. As there seems to be no impetus to remove the commentary, I’ll belt up and won’t respond when the next person asks exactly the same questions, because we both know they will…….😉
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No, I'm saying that to you because we both know what it is (DR = Elo). Saying "it's just DR" doesn't say anything to someone who's already questioning DR... nor would "it's an Elo system", unless they're familiar with Elo already. At least saying the lines aren't really relevant is better than "It's never made sense to me". Anyway...


I know reading about Elo can be confusing and often involves lots of equations that are bewildering, and examples that don't necessarily make a lot of sense, so I'll see if I can reduce (or, perhaps, just increase) the confusion with a slightly stepped out example, but avoiding the actual calculations.

Here's a calculated race result, simple typical Elo formula. I've marked driver "E" in blue for illustration:
  • The driver list is sorted by rating on the left, highest -> lowest (for this race calculation, the grid position doesn't matter)
  • E started the race in 5th position (as shown on the left)
  • E finished the race in 4th position (top rows show the race result, left to right)
  • E's rating changes by the amount shown on E's row (-4.8, -19.9, etc) based on their result against each of the drivers listed across the top, taking into account their relative rankings coming in
  • E's rating drops by a small amount, despite finishing higher than would be expected
  • Drivers I and G obviously outperformed expectations, and gain a lot of points.

1738570888168.png

Each result is shaded red for a loss, green for a win, and yellow(ish) is for effectively a draw, against each driver. Each driver obviously is a draw against themselves and scores 0 for those.

Bear in mind we can't see the numbers in the game at all. We could imagine here 2000 is the top of B3, 1500 is the top of B2, etc, but it's basically arbitrary. And for sure: I've massaged the input figures a bit. But without us being able to see what the actual ratings are in game, sometimes it could well be 'worse' than this as far as being set up for a loss despite a 'good' result.

There'll also be times when you underperform and still gain points. All depends on your result relative to the result (and rankings) of the other drivers.
 
The explanation and illustration is very useful and I’m sure it will help many who are confused and certainly gives me a better and more detailed idea of how it works, but I've reached the point now where I’m actually not really confused about how it works - at least not as I was when I first started with LMU. My concern now solely relates to the unhelpful explanations provided with the results afterwards. But we move on. BTW, If it were up to me, I would pin your post somewhere in the resources as a first port of call to those who are completely confused about how the system works. ;)
 
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Aysedasi said:
But even the Championship races are a huge risk because of the DR multiplier. I’ve lost far more DR in 4x multiplier races than virtually any daily race. Then again, I’ve never got (and probably never will get) even close to DRS1.
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But at least you wont get pushed of track and rammed like in GT7. I dont care about my Position. I just want to have fair races...
 
There's an easy answer there - drive LMU, not GT7. From the GT7 videos I've seen on FB, I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. ;)
 
Oblit0r said:
Just wanted to post this to show that you don't necessarily have to gain DR when you finished above where the game expected you to finish:
View attachment 6250

Strenght Of Field 5243 - iRating of driver 4931 (below avg.)
19 Drivers in class, driver currently in P13 and losing iRating.
Probably has to gain 3 more positions to end up gaining iRating.

The confusing thing in LMU is that the green arrows make it seem like you did good and should be gaining DR, while in reality the result wasn't good enough to get an increase.
Aswell as finishing in a position higher than the game 'expected' you to finish. When the game says 'Expected you to finish 16th', it just means you are ranked car #16 out of the lobby. It doesn't mean finishing higher than that position will automatically give you an increase in DR, as shown above.
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“When the game says 'Expected you to finish 16th', it just means you are ranked car #16 out of the lobby”

It cannot be that simple otherwise your expected Qualifying *and* Race positions would be the same. Which they usually aren’t. Unless my memory is really bad!?!
 
Is there really a need for more explanation after Lazza’s very detailed and informative post above?

Bottom line - ignore the dialogue that appears next to the rating increase/decrease. Hopefully after seeing this thread, devs will remove it in the next big update.
 
I think the ‘expected/actual’ finishing/qualifying commentary does have merit but fluff such as the top/bottom half (which is totally academic given that another dozen entrants could shift you from starting in the bottom half of one cut to the top of the one below) are unhelpful.

SR commentary on the other hand…
 
Ok, so I kinda changed my opinion on this with my latest results xD
There were no fast drivers, so I decided not to qualify and start from the back. Finished the race in P1, but lost 6.2% DR anyways.

Imo the qualifying result shouldn't outweigh the race result.
1739112050887.png
 
…but you wouldn’t have lost so much if the field had better quality. In a field of just 5 other drivers, the system is penalising the elite soldier for being taken down by a bunch of kids with pop-guns…
 
I understand that, but I finished P1 in the race.
I don't mind a negative impact on DR from qualifying badly, but it shouldn't outweigh the race result.
 
I absolutely agree that the weight of qualification should be reduced, or better yet, excluded from the rating calculation formula. The main thing is the result in the race, not the qualification. In general, the need for transparent rating formation has long been ripe, when the results show percentages for each contact, qualification, etc. Now we only see the final result, but we do not see intermediate results to draw conclusions.
 
Oblit0r said:
I understand that, but I finished P1 in the race.
I don't mind a negative impact on DR from qualifying badly, but it shouldn't outweigh the race result.
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But you clearly don’t understand the analogy Mr Fox has just used…

I encourage you all who still don’t understand the DR system to go back and read Lazza’s helpful post in this thread.

If there are enough drivers entered, the system always puts me in similar ranked lobbies and I have great races. Isn’t that all that matters? To have fun? Our livelihoods don’t ride on our DR in a racing sim. Stop focusing on it and just enjoy the race. You won. Well done. But rather than just enjoy that, you’re upset that your DR hasn’t increased by the amount you want it to.

As has been said countless times in this thread, ignore the dialogue. It means very little. There’ll be a point for everyone where, outside of freak results due to DNF’s or a DNF for yourself, your DR will stabilise and not change much. It’s not an ever increasing rating the longer you play. In a sense it’s compared to the thousands of other drivers in LMU every race you enter, not just the drivers you’ve just raced against. Yes ok, if you have the time and the drive that you want to join the aliens at the very top, you practice, you get online coaching, you pay for set ups etc you’ll keep increasing that DR. But it’ll still peak at some point.

If you’re entering a lobby with only 5 other drivers, surely it’s pretty obvious the rating system can only do so much? The qualifying has not had more weight than your race result, you most likely got negative DR because the other drivers in the lobby were ranked so far below you. So yeah, you should’ve won and won easily. You decided to not even bother to qualify. So the system sees that 5 other lowly ranked drivers out qualified you. Of course that’s going to negatively impact your DR.
 
I don't really care about DR, I just drive. I just find it odd to see a DR loss for finishing the race in P1 merely due to the qualifying position.
In real life racing, qualifying doesn't even score you any points, only the race result is what matters.
 
Oblit0r said:
I don't really care about DR, I just drive. I just find it odd to see a DR loss for finishing the race in P1 merely due to the qualifying position.
In real life racing, qualifying doesn't even score you any points, only the race result is what matters.
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I tend to agree, however having gained DR in my two championship races yesterday and today at Le Mans just because I qualified well (the race results were not as good....), I'm probably biting off my nose to spite my face..... ;)
 
I don't mind having a positive or negative DR impact from qualifying, I'm just saying it shouldn't outweigh the race result.

Maybe if I would've scored 5% from winning, just subtract a percentage from qualifying badly. Don't make it so that people will score a negative percentage as end result.
 
It might be the case that, even a win in a very imbalanced lobby actually loses you a very tiny amount of DR, despite the little arrows showing you green. It's inherent to the Elo based systems.
 
If you put a Gold driver in with a grid of B2/B3s, you shouldn’t really gain any DR from finishing/qualifying P1, should you? It should always be a break-even at best - and the greater the disparity in pay-grade, the greater the loss if you fail.

I’d be interested to see what the effect on DR would’ve been if the OP in the 6 car grid had qualified P1 but finished 6th in the race… Until we can see that, the magnitude of the qualifying demerit is hard to gauge in terms of appropriateness.
 
I didn't even check the sign-ups beforehand, was kinda surprised to only see 6 drivers. I just joined the race to test out a setup I created.

I wasn't expecting to see a massive gain, I don't even really care. All I'm saying is that qualifying badly shouldn't give you a negative DR result when winning the race.
 
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